Shoot of Jesse
Christian Argument: 2.Isaiah 11:1-2 – You’re right! It is a messianic prophecy. You’re wrong in that it is about Jesus. For if it’s not about Jesus, there is no way to prove anyone today or in the future is from the line of David. Why is it Jesus then?
Response: There are people in this world today that can prove they are descendants of David. The future Messiah must be a descendant of David through Solomon or he will not even be considered as a contender for the Messiah.
Christian Argument: Isaiah writes that a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, Jesse being the father of David, and the far son of David, the Messiah, would come out of the line of Jesse, a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And notice what it says. Without regard to some period of time or some events in the life of Jesus, this is a definitive statement about Him, “The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him.” The Holy Spirit of God Himself has Isaiah write, it is “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of the knowledge and of the fear of the Lord, and He will delight in the fear of the Lord.” …
In the 42nd chapter of Isaiah’s prophecy, in another messianic prophecy, it says this: “Behold My servant whom I uphold,” again referring to the suffering servant, the Messiah. “My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him.”
Response: You are assuming that the Christian texts are even remotely correct. This is not something I grant. I have already shown that Jesus was NOT a descendant of David through Solomon. This automatically puts him out of the running for the Messiah.
I have also shown that Jesus did NOT have the spirit of wisdom or understanding upon him for he taught against the Torah and against God Himself.
I have recently uploaded a video about the “servant” referenced in Isaiah. This servant is Israel – not Jesus.
Fear of God/Second Coming
Christian Argument:
Did Jesus fear God? Matthew 27:28 and Luke 12:4-5 “4 …
Eternal Peace, Full knowledge of God and the eternal Abrahamic and Davidic promises will be fulfilled upon the return of Jesus Christ. He came the first time to judge sin with finality. Then He was CUT OFF. When He returns, all will be fulfilled.
Response: If you are referring to the servant being “cut off,” I’ve already shown in a recent video that this is a reference to Israel. There is no “second coming.” That is a made-up myth of Christianity. The Messiah will come ONCE and will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies. Jesus couldn’t even manage to fulfill even one messianic prophecy.
Triune “God”
Christian Argument: 4. Is Jesus eternal? (John 17:5)
Is YHVH Triune consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? In Genesis Moses used a plural noun for the title of GOD – Elohim. He could have used the singular Eloah but he did not.
Response: Indeed, the name used is Elohim but it does NOT always mean a plurality.
In the beginning of God’s creation of the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 – Chabad.Org)
The Name used in verse one – and repeated through the other two verses – in “Elohim”. This is interpreted as the power behind the powers and is a formal name of God.
The verb bara (creating) is singular therefore proving that the name “Elohim” mean a singular Being. Even if it always meant a plurality why does it need to only mean a triune god? Why can’t it mean a 20-person godhead?
If you think that “Elohim” is always plural then you have a problem.
And he will speak for you to the people, and it will be that he will be your speaker, and you will be his leader [Elohim]. (Exodus 4:16 – Chabad.Org)
The Lord said to Moses, “See! I have made you a lord [Elohim] over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker. (Exodus 7:1 – Chabad.Org)
Does this make Moses part of the godhead also? Does this make Moses a plurality?
Angels
Christian Argument: Moses continued the plural thought process when God spoke in Genesis 1:26; 3:22 and 11:7 by applying plural pronouns to Himself i.e. “US” and “OUR.” Moses could have squashed any idea of the the plural nature of ONE GOD by simply stating, “LET ME MAKE MAN IN MY IMAGE AFTER MY LIKENESS…Not “US” and “OUR.” By the way, God was not including angels in “US” and “OUR” because angels are not made in the likeness of God.
Response: This is not a “proof” for a triune godhead.
And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:26 – Chabad.Org)
The “us” in this verse traditionally is said to be referring to the angels. From here we learn the humility of God. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, God consulted them.
And to whom was God talking? He was talking to the earth as seen in verse 24. God was speaking to the earth and saying that God and the earth should produce man. Obviously, it was God doing the creating since He was the one that created the earth but God enjoined the earth to “assist” (for lack of a better word) in the creation of man.
Echad
Christian Argument: Moses didn’t stop there! In Deut. 6:4, he used ECHAD instead of YACHID – “Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad.” The word, “echad” is a unified one. In Genesis 2:24 “the two shall become one [echad] flesh.”
Response: Wrong again! This is not a “proof” for a triune godhead.
Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4 – Chabad.Org)
The Hebrew in this verse refers to God by His different Names and not as three different “persons.”
And there were eight planks and their silver sockets, sixteen sockets two sockets [under one plank and] two sockets under one plank. (Exodus 36:30 – Chabad.Org)
The word “echad” is used in reference to the one plank. Does that make the one plank a “composite” of wood?
And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one [echad] day. (Genesis 1:5 – Chabad.Org)
The same word “echad” is used in this verse. Does that mean that the day was a “unified” day?
O King, you were watching, and behold, one [echad] great image, an image which had a large base and with unusual splendor, was standing opposite you, and its form was frightening. (Daniel 2:31 – Chabad.Org)
Again, one there a “unified” image or was it “an image” – singular?
Son of God
Christian Argument: David continues the plural nature of God by telling us in Psalms 2 YHVH has a Son.
Response: This is a very tired “proof text” that is used by Christians.
I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, “You are My son; this day have I begotten you. (Psalm 2:7 – Chabad.Org)
This text is obviously referring to David. This entire passage is about God appointing David to the kingship over Israel and a warning to the enemies of David that God will protect him and Israel.
This is attested to in Psalm 89:28.
I, too, shall make him a firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (Psalm 89:28 – Chabad.Org)
God also called Solomon his son.
I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of Adam. (II Samuel 7:14 – Chabad.Org)
Christian Argument: He also does something interesting in Psalms 45:6-7 The word God is given to two different persons! He is addressing God and after addressing God He says another God has anointed this God! The first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim!
Response: You obviously do not understand that “Elohim” does NOT always mean God.
Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom. You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of joy from among your peers. (Psalm 45:7-8 – Chabad.Org)
Psalm 45 is a royal wedding hymn. Some have interpreted this to be about an earthly, human king which may or may not be the coming Messiah. The psalmist is speaking directly to this king and acknowledges that due to this king’s righteousness that God has chosen him.
This king (the potential future messiah) will be a righteous man. Jesus did not adhere to God’s Laws and in some cases actively taught against them. Jesus was NOT a righteous person so this passage is clearly not talking about him.
Christian Argument: David taught Solomon and through Agur, wrote Proverbs 30:4 … Four rhetorical questions are asked with one obvious answer – YHVH. And YHVH is provided as the answer in question #5…What is His name? But there is another question: WHAT IS HIS SON’S NAME? And He attributes everything only YHVH can do to His Son! Also, back to question #1. WHEN DID GOD ASCEND INTO HEAVEN OR DESCEND DOWN TO EARTH?
Response: This passage in no way refers to Jesus.
Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know? (Proverbs 30:4 – Chabad.Org)
Who ascended to heaven and descended? This is a reference to God as seen in Genesis and Exodus.
Come, let us descend and confuse their language, so that one will not understand the language of his companion. (Genesis 11:7 – Chabad.Org)
And the entire Mount Sinai smoked because the Lord had descended upon it in fire, and its smoke ascended like the smoke of the kiln, and the entire mountain quaked violently. (Exodus 19:18 – Chabad.Org)
Who gathered wind in his fists? Another obvious factor pointing directly at God.
For behold, He forms mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what his speech is; He makes dawn into darkness, and treads on the high places of the earth; the Lord God of Hosts is His Name. (Amos 4:13 – Chabad.Org)
He raises the clouds from the edge of the earth; He made lightning for the rain; He finds wind [to send] out of His treasuries. (Psalm 135:7 – Chabad.Org)
Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Again, a reference to God.
He binds water in His clouds, and the cloud does not split beneath it. (Job 26:8 – Chabad.Org)
Who established all the ends of the earth? This still refers to God.
And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas, and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:10 – Chabad.Org)
What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know? This question, and its answer, directly contradicts what you are trying to “prove.”
Both of these questions are sarcastic in nature. The psalmist is asking you to give the name of any man who ever possessed these powers. If you claim such a man existed then you should also know his son’s name (as well as other factors about this man).
Also, the question of “what is his name” is also clearly seen in Exodus.
And Moses said to God, “Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” (Exodus 3:13 – Chabad.Org)
Obviously, Moses already said that he was sent by the God of the children of Israel. The question “what is His name” actually means “what great deeds has He done.” If Moses can recount the great deeds then the people will indeed believe Moses and follow him.
Plurality
Christian Argument: Isaiah continues the plural nature of God though in 6:8; 7:14 and 9:6. You even quoted part of Isaiah 63 with the triunity of God right in your face and you missed it!
Response: None of these verses are talking about a plurality of God.
And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here I am; send me.” (Isaiah 6:8 – Chabad.Org)
In the previous verses we can see that God is surrounded by angels. This is the “us” referenced in this verse.
Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14 – Chabad.Org)
I have already addressed this issue. This is not about a supposed “virgin” birth that will take place hundreds of years in the future.
The kind acts of the Lord I will mention, the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord bestowed upon us, and much good to the house of Israel, which He bestowed upon them according to His mercies and according to His many kind acts. And He said, “They are but My people, children who will not deal falsely.” And He became their Savior. In all their trouble, He did not trouble [them], and the angel of His presence saved them; with His love and with His pity He redeemed them, and He bore them, and He carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, and He was turned to be their enemy; He fought with them. And His people remembered the days of old, [the days of] Moses; where is he who drew them up from the sea, [like] a shepherd His flock; where is he who placed within them His Holy Spirit? He led at Moses’ right the arm of His glory, splitting the water before them to make for Himself an everlasting name. He led them in the depths like a horse in the desert; they did not stumble. As animals spread out in a valley, the spirit of the Lord guided them, so You guided Your people to make You a glorious name. (Isaiah 63:7-14 – Chabad.Org)
Who are these verses talking about? Well, it is clearly God. In the first verse Isaiah talks about this topic of this passage as someone “Who is this coming from Edom, with soiled garments.” Jesus never came from Edom but God did.
For My sword has become sated in the heaven. Behold, it shall descend upon Edom, and upon the nation with whom I contend, for judgment. (Isaiah 34:5 – Chabad.Org)
In verse two we see the question of why the clothes are red.
Why is Your clothing red, and your attire like [that of] one who trod in a wine press? (Isaiah 63:2 – Chabad.Org)
Well, that is because God descended upon Edom and destroyed them. Jesus never destroyed Edom.
The verses you speak of are clearly talking about God and God alone – no plurality. God is Israel’s savior – as indicated in verses seven and eight.
The kind acts of the Lord I will mention, the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord bestowed upon us, and much good to the house of Israel, which He bestowed upon them according to His mercies and according to His many kind acts. And He said, “They are but My people, children who will not deal falsely.” And He became their Savior. (Isaiah 63:7-8 – Chabad.Org)
The remainder of the verses you try to use as proofs only show how the children of Israel rebelled against God yet, just like in the days of Moses, God will once again stretch out His arm and save them.
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References:
Uri Yosef “The ‘Seed of a Woman”: A Kernel of Deception
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMlwqkHnTG8